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TOPIC: TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13

TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 26 Oct 2017 13:25 #8713

I truly respect all thoughts and ideas expressed here.

My personal thought ( s ) is that USB drives are relatively cheap these days. I have purchased several USB drives and use them as back ups for working with High Sierra. Also there does not seem to be at this stage the " perfect " Utility for High Sierra.

But then again that is what i do and certainly do not recommend my way to anyone here especially the MacOS gurus that contribute their thoughts here especially the micromattech guys/gals that monitor these posts and have also pointed out to me the dangers of some of my ideas. Thanks again micromatttech.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 26 Oct 2017 14:16 #8714

You are welcome, and thanks for your confidence.

One of the better sources of information about Macintosh problems and solutions is MacInTouch.com. It could be said to have a high signal-to-noise ratio, unlike some other places.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 27 Oct 2017 13:08 #8715

worked perfectly for me; in fact I did it a week ago, before reading this suggestion!
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 02 Nov 2017 20:00 #8726

I can certainly understand some of the issues Micromat must be encountering with High Sierra and Tech Tool Pro. Here, though, is another interesting take from Shirt Pocket, the company that makes the excellent product SuperDuper!:

www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/index.php/comm...beta_7_spooktacular/

I wonder of Micromat is encountering "similar" issues. This HFS+/APFS business sure is perplexing, and certainly challenging. Myself, all of my drives are Samsung SSDs, but I wonder how all this APFS stuff is going to play out with my drives. A it is, my external Samsung SSDs are formatted as HFS+, and I myself do not plan on changing that. However, 2 of the partitions on each of those drives are for SuperDuper! backups, and thus it looks like when I run SuperDuper! for the first time after upgrading to High Sierra, those partitions will first be re-formatted as APFS, and then SuperDuper! will proceed with the backup. I assume that on the last partition (mainly for storing different kinds of "items", including Movies and TV series), which "should" remain HFS+, that it will still work fine with software that reads and processes items from there.

I also wonder that after I make my last "Sierra" SuperDuper! backup to my external HFS+ partition (after, of course, running Onyx and Tech Tool Pro to perform disk cleanup/maintenance/repairs), and then restarting my Mac from that SuperDuper! backup, I would use the "Sierra" version of Disk Utility to Erase and Format the internal SSD. When I next launch the file "Install macOS High Sierra", I had previously read that prior to the actual installation, High Sierra will re-format that internal SSD as APFS. Does anyone know if that is accurate?

This whole HFS+/APFS business has me somewhat concerned, especially with the post from Shirt Pocket. Fortunately, the excellent products Onyx, Tech Tool Pro, and SuperDuper! can help a lot, but I am still concerned. Anyone care to comment?
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 02 Nov 2017 21:47 #8727

I do not know if our developers have noted the same problems that Dave Nanian has found, but I do not see why the outcome would be any different for them if they tried the same experiments.

You can avoid having the High Sierra installer automatically reformat an internal SSD on which you install the system software by several means. Search at Google for:

prevent high sierra apfs
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 02 Nov 2017 21:48 by micromattech3.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 02 Nov 2017 22:52 #8728

micromattech3 wrote:
I do not know if our developers have noted the same problems that Dave Nanian has found, but I do not see why the outcome would be any different for them if they tried the same experiments.

You can avoid having the High Sierra installer automatically reformat an internal SSD on which you install the system software by several means. Search at Google for:

prevent high sierra apfs

Given that both of my Macs have Samsung SSDs, I see no reason why I should prevent the SSDs being re-formatted as APFS right before High Sierra proceeds with the installation. I guess if there were any of my third party apps that would not function "nicely" with APFS, then I would want to prevent the re-format. But, given that I am insuring that all my third party apps will work with High Sierra, I believe my bases are covered. (Of course, I am still waiting for Tech Tool Pro, SuperDuper!, and the Logitech Control Center software to become fully compatible). 1Password, Office 2016, and Onyx are already compatible. And from this site:

roaringapps.com/apps

I see where my other "primary" third party apps (VLC, Quicken 2017, EasyFind, AppCleaner, and Transmission) work fine with High Sierra. And with the "eventual" version of SuperDuper! re-formatting the backup partitions on my external SSDs as APFS, I am hoping to be completely OK.

If there are issues I should be concerned with by (eventually) going "all APFS", I would appreciate any insights, input, etc.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 02 Nov 2017 23:36 #8729

It might be prudent to wait until APFS issues such as the one in these threads are thoroughly understood:


at MacInTouch: <<www.macintouch.com/forums/showthread.php...7&pid=27802#pid27802>> linking to

<<forums.developer.apple.com/thread/79385>>
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 03 Nov 2017 02:25 #8730

micromattech3 wrote:
It might be prudent to wait until APFS issues such as the one in these threads are thoroughly understood:


at MacInTouch: <<www.macintouch.com/forums/showthread.php...7&pid=27802#pid27802>> linking to

<<forums.developer.apple.com/thread/79385>>

Thank you so much! That is certainly informative. I will definitely heed your advice about waiting until Apple gets all of this resolved, even if there are updates for Tech Tool Pro, SuperDuper!, and the Logitech Control Center software. Even the OS 10.13.1 "update" messed things up!
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 03 Nov 2017 02:27 #8731

You are welcome, and I am pleased that you found the discussion helpful.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 03 Nov 2017 02:27 by micromattech3.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 03 Nov 2017 19:28 #8734

First and foremost, I really appreciate all this exchanging of information. It is definitely both helpful and educational.

Secondly, while on another site, I have both led and become involved with a discussion about backups. Intertwined I have mentioned Tech Tool Pro quite a few times. I though I would share a couple of things I discovered this morning as part of those discussions.

SuperDuper! (and the testing efforts by Shirt Pocket) has been mentioned q number of times. Part of that other discussion I've been involved with has to do with Carbon Copy Cloner (an excellent product, by the way). It "appears" that CCC is "fully" compatible with High Sierra, but given all the issues that still are involved with it (including the "almost do nothing" OS 10.13.1 update), it seems to be a possible touchy situation. Here are 2 links from the Bombich site (the company that makes CCC):

bombich.com/kb/ccc5/high-sierra-testing-and-known-issues

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfqfMf2z9k&feature=youtu.be

That first one still shows some issues with High Sierra. The second one is an excellent description of the new version of Disk Utility contained in High Sierra, and the "challenges" involved with this AFPS/HFS+ business.

From my perspective, I "should" be OK, as all of my drives are Samsung SSDs. But, besides what the good folks here have said about being prudent and waiting to upgrade to High Sierra (along with waiting for the necessary upgrades to Tech Tool pro, SuperDuper!, and the Logitech Control Center software for my Logitech mice, I am still not convinced that High Sierra is "safe". And of course there is nothing in High Sierra that is a "must have".

I would appreciate more comments, exchanges, etc. It is certainly beneficial!
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 03 Nov 2017 19:47 #8735

You are welcome.

Thanks for mentioning TechTool Pro on the other site, and for posting the links to the Bombich video and CCC discussion here. I plan to read both his comments and Dave Nanian's regularly. I read MacInTouch daily and TidBITS weekly.

I have to say that anyone experimenting with the "APFS Encrypted RAID 0 device" mentioned in the Bombich posting has a lot of faith in something so new.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 03 Nov 2017 22:05 #8736

Here’s my experience, FWIW: no problem with clones or TimeMachine.

My wife and I each have AirBooks with SSDs, and I’m the home IT guy. I’m usually an inveterate early adopter (risky, I know, but can’t help it), so I installed 10.3.1 on both machines. I’ve been using SuperDuper! for weekly clones since forever (both Macs on the same external hard disk - not an SSD), and have also been making Time Machine backups, for years on a Time Capsule, again both Macs on the same TC.

As soon as Dave Nanian came out with his “good for APFS” SuperDuper! versions (v3.0 (now v. 99.7), I cloned both. Both clones boot up, all apps and files (of course, I didn’t look at everything, just a fair sample) seem to be present and work. But there are two unusual things: my clone is Journaled HFS+; but my wife’s is APFS. Very strange,and no idea why, because I did the same thing on both. Another unusual thing is that booting up the clones is slow as molasses; it was always slower than booting up the AirBooks, but now it’s looooong minutes. But, in the end, everything works and seems OK. The Time Capsule seems OK, too.

Maybe I’m just lucky.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 03 Nov 2017 22:32 #8737

The "Conclusions" section of the article that akent35 mentioned, at <<bombich.com/kb/ccc5/high-sierra-testing-and-known-issues>> , has an interesting observation about one APFS variant that resulted in a noticeable delay in boot performance.

Keep in mind that a good cloning tool deliberately excludes some files and caches that Apple suggests not be copied, and after a few boots from a clone, its performance should improve. For example, the benefits of hot file clustering take time to be reproduced (article is linked from Hot File Clustering with multiple partitions.

If you have not already done so, please send a message to Shirt Pocket Software about the unexpected difference in the volume formats of the two clone that were made using the same approach. Thank you.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 03 Nov 2017 22:34 by micromattech3.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 03 Nov 2017 23:34 #8738

micromattech3 wrote:
The "Conclusions" section of the article that akent35 mentioned, at <<bombich.com/kb/ccc5/high-sierra-testing-and-known-issues>> , has an interesting observation about one APFS variant that resulted in a noticeable delay in boot performance.

Keep in mind that a good cloning tool deliberately excludes some files and caches that Apple suggests not be copied, and after a few boots from a clone, its performance should improve. For example, the benefits of hot file clustering take time to be reproduced (article is linked from Hot File Clustering with multiple partitions.

If you have not already done so, please send a message to Shirt Pocket Software about the unexpected difference in the volume formats of the two clone that were made using the same approach. Thank you.

Thanks for that information. And yes, I'll send those Bombich links to Shirt Pocket Software.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 03 Nov 2017 23:47 #8739

gbdoc wrote:
Here’s my experience, FWIW: no problem with clones or TimeMachine.

My wife and I each have AirBooks with SSDs, and I’m the home IT guy. I’m usually an inveterate early adopter (risky, I know, but can’t help it), so I installed 10.3.1 on both machines. I’ve been using SuperDuper! for weekly clones since forever (both Macs on the same external hard disk - not an SSD), and have also been making Time Machine backups, for years on a Time Capsule, again both Macs on the same TC.

As soon as Dave Nanian came out with his “good for APFS” SuperDuper! versions (v3.0 (now v. 99.7), I cloned both. Both clones boot up, all apps and files (of course, I didn’t look at everything, just a fair sample) seem to be present and work. But there are two unusual things: my clone is Journaled HFS+; but my wife’s is APFS. Very strange,and no idea why, because I did the same thing on both. Another unusual thing is that booting up the clones is slow as molasses; it was always slower than booting up the AirBooks, but now it’s looooong minutes. But, in the end, everything works and seems OK. The Time Capsule seems OK, too.

Maybe I’m just lucky.

Your post is both interesting and definitely applicable for myself. One of my Macs is a mid 2013 13" MacBook Air, with the other being a late 2012 Mac Mini. The Air machine (of course) already had a 252 gig Samsung SSD, and I installed a Samsung 840 Pro 256 gig SSD inside the Mac Mini. I also have two external drives, both of them being Samsung 512 gig 850 Pro devices, inside nice Orico enclosures. From what I have read, the "stable" version of SuperDuper! is V2.9.2, released some weeks back. From Shirt Pocket's site, that version is compatible with macOS High Sierra HFS+ volumes. V 3.0, Beta 7, is still being tested, but it is supposed to work with APFS volumes. I have also seen some comments about APFS volumes being "faster" in terms to booting up. With that in mind, does your wife's clone (from an APFS Volume) boot faster than your clone?

Also, what about the SSDs inside your MB Air machines? Did you do a clean, fresh, "virgin" installation of High Sierra (was that V10.13, or V10.13.1?), and if you, were those SSDs reformatted as APFS before the installation began? If they are formatted as APFS, how are the boot times?
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 00:26 #8740

I sent it to Dave Nanian, and this is his reply:

"One was an APFS source (or did an erase) and the other was an HFS+ source (or didn't erase)... :-)"

Since both AirBooks have SSDs and 10.13.1, both sources are APFS, I must have done an incremental backup (Smart backup) from mine, but an "Erase and backup" from the other (though I thought I did an Erase from both. OR, there's something else going on. I'll do an Erase with mine soon, and report the result.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 00:44 #8741

Here's Dave Nanian's latest answer (he's really quick!) about SuperDuper:

"With Beta 7, as the blog post indicates, we don’t change the major file system type. You can erase it as APFS yourself, or you can leave it as HFS+. Otherwise we’ll preserve its format if it doesn’t match."

And that solves the riddle. I think I cloned my wife's with an earlier beta, and mine with the newest. In any case, though, all's good.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 00:49 #8742

Thanks for the likely explanation about the volume format difference. And yes, Dave is very quick to reply.

I have sometimes had unexpected outcomes that made me wish I had taken more detailed notes. I have an odd problem with my Contacts not autosaving properly. Trying to investigate that problem has made me more aware of noting anything unusual, and the conditions needed to reproduce the problem.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2017 00:53 by micromattech3.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 01:03 #8743

No virgin installation of HS, no reformatting anything, just first did 10.13, then upped to 10.13.1. I'll report on the bootup times/differences when I get a longer chance (wife's is in her office now).
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 01:16 #8744

I will never forget the horrified reaction I got from someone years ago when I made the mistake of saying, "I just want to do a little experiment with your computer." I no longer recall what the experiment was.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 01:23 #8745

You're still with us, so I expect your experiment worked ;)
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 01:25 #8746

Dave Nanian's blog explains how and why the latest SD beta works as it does. Read it <www.shirt-pocket.com/blog/index.php/comm...beta_7_spooktacular/>
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 01:35 #8747

Either my experiment worked, or it did no lasting damage. I learned a bit of empathy for people who might be suspicious of experiments being run on their computer.

It is interesting to see the changes Dave Nanian has made to error logging since the challenge of the High Sierra arrived.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 01:43 #8748

Well, after seeing everyone’s conversations about other software, will I ever be able to use TechTool Pro with High Sierra?
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 01:49 #8749

Yes, but I do not know when.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 04:01 #8750

Disappointing to have a good product from a reputable company that does not start developing in time to have the product ready when the new OS launches. This is paid SW not Happy freeware.
Can you recommend a different product from a competitor while you develop?

Thx
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 10:20 #8751

If you read this thread and the linked articles carefully, you will find that Apple has not completed documenting how the APFS filesystem works. In addition, until High Sierra was released to the public, there was no way to be certain that there would not be significant changes, undocumented, to the public release that were not in the final beta.

When Apple released Mac OS X Tiger, it added a completely new file, the Extended Attributes file, to the disk directory. A disk repair utility that did not take that file into account would damage it, resulting in the refusal of the operating system to mount the volume.

There are no products from competitors that have comparable features that work under High Sierra.

Some time was also lost because of the recent fire:
Attachments:
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2017 10:21 by micromattech3.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 13:00 #8752

Well, there were betas as usual all along the way of High Sierra. I would think Micromat would have been beta testing all along the way as well. Disappointed to have made the purchase of TTP, assuming that it would work with the new OS.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 13:29 #8753

Betas allow you to start to develop a new version of a program. They do not allow you to finish the product and then adequately test your product with your own test program. These issues have been discussed at length in these forums for the last three years.

A filesystem that is not even documented to the level of TN1150 is not a minor problem.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2017 13:32 by micromattech3.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 18:59 #8754

micromattech3 wrote:
Betas allow you to start to develop a new version of a program. They do not allow you to finish the product and then adequately test your product with your own test program. These issues have been discussed at length in these forums for the last three years.

A filesystem that is not even documented to the level of TN1150 is not a minor problem.

Just to re-enforce what micromattech3 stated above:

1. Before Sierra, Micromat (and a couple of other firms) would release OS-related updates within a couple of weeks after the initial version of the new Mac OS was released. But last year, for valid reasons (and of course for being extra careful), Micromat did not release the upgrade for Sierra compatibility until mid to late November (can't remember exactly when). By that time, the first update to Sierra, OS 10.12.1, had been released, and given that all my other critical apps already had updates, I went ahead and "upgraded" from El Capitan to Sierra (OS 10.12.1). I of course first did an Erase and Format of my internal SSDs, then a fresh, clean, "virgin" installation of OS 10.12.1, and finally via Migration Assistant, "migrated"/copied needed stuff from my most recent SuperDuper! backup. Restarted each of my Macs, and I was good to go. That "delay" by Micromat was certainly justified.

But High Sierra us definitely a different "animal". This APFS/HFS+ business is definitely no easy task, and especially with Apple not providing (nor maybe not able to come up with?) needed documentation about all this. I for one am pleased that Micromat is being very thorough with the necessary testing. Except for (possibly) faster processing with the APFS format, as I have mentioned so many times, there is really nothing compelling in High Sierra. Even if an update for Tech Tool Pro was available, I would still wait until I had firm, permanent updates from Shirt Pocket Software (for SuperDuper!) and Logitech (their control center software for my Logitech mice). Even the (supposed) compatibility of Carbon Copy Cloner would be a concern, as even their testing still shows some "not so minor" issues.

So kudos to Micromat (and Shirt Pocket Software) for "not rushing to Judgement", so to speak, and insuring that when an update is released, it will be as stable as possible (hopefully Apple would have provided all the necessary documentation by that time).
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 19:03 #8755

gbdoc wrote:
No virgin installation of HS, no reformatting anything, just first did 10.13, then upped to 10.13.1. I'll report on the bootup times/differences when I get a longer chance (wife's is in her office now).

So, you basically had High Sierra "overwrite" whatever OS you had there before (was it V10.12.6 of Sierra?), and then applied the OS 10.13.1 update. As I have always done, when I finally "upgrade" to High Sierra, it will be via a fresh, clean, "virgin" installation of the version of High Sierra available at that time. And i would want to have all 4 of my SSDs be formatted as AFPS.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 22:45 #8756

Yes, I simply installed 10.13, and then 10.13.1 over what was the newest before. I'm not all that well versed in these things, but why would a "virgin" installation be better nowadays? I seem to recall that back in the early Mac OS days that was often recommended, but it's my impression that that's no longer necessary. Of course, you wouldn't damage anything by doing that, but it seems to me to simply entail more work, without any benefit.

Also, as I understand it, just installing HS on an SSD converts it to APFS automatically, no need to do anything extra to format it so - and that's what happened on our AirBooks.

Finally, it seems that once everything gets sorted out and the dust settles, APFS is the way of the MacOS future (until something even newer comes along), and HFS+ will simply disappear before long, not only on SSDs but on disks, too.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 23:21 #8757

MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 04 Nov 2017 23:22 by micromattech3.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 04 Nov 2017 23:44 #8758

micromattech3 wrote:
Yes, and, as it says, it requires HS, and "APFS is optimized for solid-state drives (SSDs) and other all-flash storage devices." But the question would be whether, once HS is installed on a hard disk (not an SSD), would APFS work better or worse than HFS+, or is there any meaningful difference - performance, reliability, or whatever?

Since this is such a big and fundamental change, my guess is that Apple didn't make it for trivial reasons, so it's either an improvement per se, or it prepares the ground for something they plan to introduce in the future. On the other hand, it might have something to do with further integrating MacOS with iOS - which, for me, at least, has been unwelcome so far (my daughter says I'm a Luddite).
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 01:10 #8759

APFS is intended to provide many of the features of such modern filesystems as ZFS, but without the checksumming that is claimed to add significant overhead.

The free space of all the volumes in the same APFS "container" is shared, and a given bit of data (such as a paragraph in a word processor document) can be shared by multiple files, saving space and eliminating unnecessary write events. Those two attributes are desirable on an SSD, since flash memory is relatively expensive per gigabyte, and the memory cells have a limited number of write cycles. That is about all I have seen about the advantages.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 06:45 #8763

gbdoc wrote:
Yes, I simply installed 10.13, and then 10.13.1 over what was the newest before. I'm not all that well versed in these things, but why would a "virgin" installation be better nowadays? I seem to recall that back in the early Mac OS days that was often recommended, but it's my impression that that's no longer necessary. Of course, you wouldn't damage anything by doing that, but it seems to me to simply entail more work, without any benefit.

While that "might" be true, there are two other "myths" which I know is not valid. Supposedly, ever since El Capitan, the Mac OS takes care of 1) permissions, and 2) disk/volume defragmentation/optimization. Well, I certainly did not see that for HDDs, as when I still had HDDs, it was still beneficial (and needed) to use Tech Tool Pro for File and Volume Optimization. (With SSDs, of course, that is no longer needed, nor recommended). And for permissions, when I do my weekly disk cleanup/maintenance/repairs, and backups, I first run Onyx, and after having it first check out each of my internal SSDs, I then run Permissions repair, and it always finds permissions that need to be repaired. In fact, I have to run it twice foreach of my Macs.

Hence, in a similar fashion, when upgrading to a new Mac OS (or sometimes "within" a current Mac OS), I will do an Erase and Format of the SSD, then a clean, fresh, "virgin" installation of the OS. I just don't feel comfortable with overwriting what was there, and especially in the case of an older OS. Yes, it's a bit more work, but I rarely, if ever, have any further issues after that. And given how significantly different High Sierra is compared to any prior Mac OS, that (at least for me) is all the more reason for doing a clean installation.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 15:29 #8766

Hi, I am running Techtool Pro with High Sierra but have found you disk permission tool does not work and does not show drive. will this work in future
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 16:36 #8767

Please do not run TechTool Pro 9.5.3 with High Sierra. It is not compatible with it.

I assume that if the problem with the file permissions tool is fixable, it will get fixed. All utilities that repair permissions are using commands provided by Apple. The required command may be somewhat different for High Sierra.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 18:17 #8768

akent35 wrote:
Hence, in a similar fashion, when upgrading to a new Mac OS (or sometimes "within" a current Mac OS), I will do an Erase and Format of the SSD, then a clean, fresh, "virgin" installation of the OS. I just don't feel comfortable with overwriting what was there, and especially in the case of an older OS. Yes, it's a bit more work, but I rarely, if ever, have any further issues after that. And given how significantly different High Sierra is compared to any prior Mac OS, that (at least for me) is all the more reason for doing a clean installation.

That means you have to get your data and everything else back onto your new OS installation. How do you do that? Migration Assistant can do it easily, but has the disadvantage of migrating a bunch (a big bunch) of outdated leftovers from the past. Doing a "clean installation" means a lot of work, though it sounds like a good idea once in a (very long) while. I've never done it, but I believe (hope) that CleanMyMac, which I use every once in a while, and before and after an OS update, cleans a lot of that stuff out. This addresses that issue: <www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/setting...-clean-installation/>
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 18:19 #8769

Apple recommends migrating data from a Time Machine backup rather than a clone, but does not explain why.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 18:31 #8770

micromattech3 wrote:
APFS is intended to provide many of the features of such modern filesystems as ZFS, but without the checksumming that is claimed to add significant overhead.

The free space of all the volumes in the same APFS "container" is shared, and a given bit of data (such as a paragraph in a word processor document) can be shared by multiple files, saving space and eliminating unnecessary write events. Those two attributes are desirable on an SSD, since flash memory is relatively expensive per gigabyte, and the memory cells have a limited number of write cycles. That is about all I have seen about the advantages.

Thanks for that information. Another reason why an immediate upgrade to High Sierra is not necessary.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 18:36 #8771

You are welcome.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 18:36 #8772

akent35 wrote:
I then run Permissions repair, and it always finds permissions that need to be repaired. In fact, I have to run it twice foreach of my Macs.

Hmmm ... Not to argue, but opinions vary about this; I'm not sure repairing perms is that useful any more (I believe it was, once upon a time). Yes, when we do that routine (Terminal, or OnyX), many perms will be "fixed" - but unless somebody's been fooling around with your perms settings (which nobody but a real expert should even go near), they weren't really "broken" to begin with, they were different from what somebody at Apple decided they should be. While those aren't "wrong" either (and "repairing" them to revert to Apple's opinion won't cause problems), some app developers have other opinions about these things, so their perms are different, but also not "wrong", and don't cause problems if left alone. I use OnyX, too, and let it do its thing, but the perms thing isn't a high priority for me.
Last Edit: 05 Nov 2017 18:42 by gbdoc.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 18:41 #8773

micromattech3 wrote:
Apple recommends migrating data from a Time Machine backup rather than a clone, but does not explain why.

Apple's faith in TM, especially via WiFi Time Capsule, is unwarrented. Those sometime get totally corrupted, and, especially recently, I've noticed that Mail backups don't back up custom mailboxes - which is unacceptable. I use a TC, and it has occasionally been helpful, but I'd never trust it as my only backup.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 18:51 #8774

If it is true that there is an advantage to using a Time Machine backup rather than a clone, a person with an available volume could make a single Time Machine backup to it, and then check to make sure the backup is good. A single backup is not likely to be corrupted. I have not had my Time Machine become corrupted since I switched from automatic backups to frequent manual backups. It has been working since August 7, 2016.
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Makers of TechTool
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 18:59 #8775

gbdoc wrote:
akent35 wrote:
Hence, in a similar fashion, when upgrading to a new Mac OS (or sometimes "within" a current Mac OS), I will do an Erase and Format of the SSD, then a clean, fresh, "virgin" installation of the OS. I just don't feel comfortable with overwriting what was there, and especially in the case of an older OS. Yes, it's a bit more work, but I rarely, if ever, have any further issues after that. And given how significantly different High Sierra is compared to any prior Mac OS, that (at least for me) is all the more reason for doing a clean installation.

That means you have to get your data and everything else back onto your new OS installation. How do you do that? Migration Assistant can do it easily, but has the disadvantage of migrating a bunch (a big bunch) of outdated leftovers from the past. Doing a "clean installation" means a lot of work, though it sounds like a good idea once in a (very long) while. I've never done it, but I believe (hope) that CleanMyMac, which I use every once in a while, and before and after an OS update, cleans a lot of that stuff out. This addresses that issue: <www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/setting...-clean-installation/>

Yes, but I have never had an issue with that. At the end of the OS installation, I am offered the opportunity, via Migration Assistant, to "migrate"/copy needed "stuff" from the backup, which was just a completed one done by SuperDuper!. Has always worked flawlessly for me.

Now, regarding "outdated" leftovers. First, I have read (on other forums) about CleanMyMac not being that "safe", but not as bad as the nefarious MacKeeper. Secondly, I am constantly keeping my Macs "lean, mean, and clean". Between my weekly disk cleanup/maintenance/repairs, and backups, I am doing disk cleanup on a daily basis. The one I do just about every time when I use my either of my machines is to have EMails I have deleted in Outlook 2016 permanently removed (there are two easy ways to do that in Outlook 2016; not sure about other EMail clients). Also, when an update comes out for a program I use, after installing and testing it, I "place" the update inside a folder for that app that I have contained in another folder entitled "Useful Software", and then I get rid of the oldest update for that app there (I typically always keep the prior update, along with the current one). None of that is time consuming, and it is second nature to me.

When I do my weekly disk cleanup/maintenance/repairs, and backups, I first launch Onyx, and perform the following functions:

1. Let it first check out the internal drive (SSD in each of my Macs).
2. Run Permissions Repair (usually need to do it at least twice, Scripts, and Rebuilding.
3. Run the 6 tasks "Misc. (deletes unneeded files), Logs, Fonts, Internet, User, and System (those last 4 clean out various cache files).

Next, I launch Tech Tool Pro, then re-start it from its eDrive. I then run the following routines, in the order indicated:

1. Memory Test
2. SMARTCheck
3. Partition Map
4. Video Memory
5. Sensors Test
6. Fans Test
6a. For my Mac Book Air, Battery check.
7. Surface Scan (takes the longest, but I am "multitasking, doing other non-computer things while that runs).
8. Volume Structures
9. File Structures
10. Volume Rebuild

I guess that I have been fortunate (maybe a direct result of my cleaning efforts) that TTT never turns up any issues.

Finally, I launch SuperDuper!, and back up each of my "clean" Macs to two separate external devices (Samsung SSDs).

So, I suspect that by doing that, when I next proceed with either a complete SuperDuper! restore, or a clean OS installation, and then a migration from that just completed backup, I am just about as "clean as possible".

Yes, that might seem "labor intensive", but those practices have always served me well. Even though I am "computer literate", I want to avoid as many issues as I can with my Macs, and for 99.9% of the time, that is the case.

Oops! Forgot to mention one other thing. If I want to remove an application I no longer want nor need, I use the excellent freeware program AppCleaner. That gem finds all the files associated with app (along with the app itself0, and thus is another tool for keep my Macs "lean, mean, and clean". (AppCleaner is already compatible with High Sierra).
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 19:01 #8776

micromattech3 wrote:
Apple recommends migrating data from a Time Machine backup rather than a clone, but does not explain why.

Never been an issue for me migrating data from any of my SuperDuper! backups for both of my Macs. In fact, it works flawlessly!
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 19:05 #8777

micromattech3 wrote:
If it is true that there is an advantage to using a Time Machine backup rather than a clone, a person with an available volume could make a single Time Machine backup to it, and then check to make sure the backup is good. A single backup is not likely to be corrupted. I have not had my Time Machine become corrupted since I switched from automatic backups to frequent manual backups. It has been working since August 7, 2016.

I understand if folks need to back up frequently, but for my needs, doing a once a week backup with SuperDuper! is easily enough. And as I explained in detail above, I do a lot of disk cleanup/maintenance/repairs first, via Onyx and Tech Tool Pro, before I do the backups. Hence, as expected, I never have an issue either.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 05 Nov 2017 19:11 #8778

gbdoc wrote:
akent35 wrote:
I then run Permissions repair, and it always finds permissions that need to be repaired. In fact, I have to run it twice foreach of my Macs.

Hmmm ... Not to argue, but opinions vary about this; I'm not sure repairing perms is that useful any more (I believe it was, once upon a time). Yes, when we do that routine (Terminal, or OnyX), many perms will be "fixed" - but unless somebody's been fooling around with your perms settings (which nobody but a real expert should even go near), they weren't really "broken" to begin with, they were different from what somebody at Apple decided they should be. While those aren't "wrong" either (and "repairing" them to revert to Apple's opinion won't cause problems), some app developers have other opinions about these things, so their perms are different, but also not "wrong", and don't cause problems if left alone. I use OnyX, too, and let it do its thing, but the perms thing isn't a high priority for me.

Yeah, I have seen these "round and round" opinions about repairing permissions, but it is still clear that the Mac OS does not take care of it (as ?promised?). I do see that Tech Tool pro also includes that task. I suspect it makes no difference which software I use for that task, ie, Onyx, or Tech Tool Pro. I will say, though, that on a fresh, clean, "virgin" installation of the Mac OS, and then a migration of all my needed "stuff" from my SuperDuper! backup, then number of permissions needing repair increases substantially. But Onyx takes care of that for me (although I have to run it 3 (maybe 4) times.

However, for Volume and File optimization, that is definitely something that Tech Tool Pro helps with if one is using HDDs.
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TechTool Pro 9.x and High Sierra, OS 10.13 06 Nov 2017 12:53 #8781

Follow-up, and warning (don’t do what I did):

My setup:
2 AirBooks (mine and wife’s, both with 10.13.1, so both now APFS), both cloned (with SuperDuper!) onto separate partitions on an external disk drive, which also has 2 more partitions for “Extras”, one each for me and wife, containing docs and other stuff which we only use rarely). That drive, all 4 partitions on it, was originally HSF+.

Performance before High Sierra:
When I mounted the external drive, all 4 partitions came up quickly on my desktop, and when I ejected them, they all ejected neatly and promptly. When I booted from one of the clones, the bootup time was longer than bootup on the AirBooks, taking maybe about 3-4 minutes.

Performance now, with HS:
I reformatted the two clone partitions to APFS, and cloned each AirBook with SD’s “Erase and copy”. The 2 Extras partitions remain HFS+.

Strange behaviour 1: when I mount the external disk, the Extras partitions appear on my desktop as quickly as they did before, but the 2 clones only appear after a bit. And when I eject all 4 partitions, the Extras eject fine, but both clones not so fine: they disappear from the desktop, but for each I get a “couldn’t be ejected, must use force eject”. (Spotlight’s “Privacy” prefs are set to exclude all 4 partitions.)

Strange behaviour 2: booting up from both clones works, but now takes at least 10 minutes or more!!! And doing any work on that disk, opening files, apps, etc., is very sluggish.

Conclusion: it seems that APFS degrades performance on hard disks (non-SSDs). While it works, it works much more slowly than HFS+. In retrospect, it seems it was a mistake to reformat the clones to APFS. It’s a bummer that Disk Utility can’t reformat them back to HFS+. I understand that that can be done using Terminal, but I’ve never worked with that, and don’t feel comfortable trying.

That may change when TTP and Disk Warrior can finally work with APFS, maybe performance with HDs can be improved, but we’ll have to wait and see.
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