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TOPIC: APFS Volumes

APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 03:48 #10600

Running Mojave and have been anxiously awaiting the TT 11 upgrade. Just installed it and created a Protogo flash drive. When started up from the Protogo I still cannot run File or Volume optimization. I get a message saying that these options are not available for APFS formatted volumes. I thought that TT 11 was supposed to completely compatible with Mojave. What gives?
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 12:28 #10606

I do not have an explanation for why the optimizations are unavailable when the Macintosh is booted from a Protogo device. Neither optimization should be available for any volume on an SSD.

Please send a message to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. . You will receive a reply by email next week, and may be asked to send in some additional information, such as an Apple System Information report. Thank you.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 10 Feb 2019 12:43 by micromattech3.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 14:56 #10609

I have exactly the same problem with my SATA drive too. I cannot run File or Volume Optimization from the Protogo Drive I created and get the same results.Nothing.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 14:59 #10610

I also have the same problem except I am on a SATA drive running Mojave 10.14.3.
" When started up from the Protogo I still cannot run File or Volume optimization. I get a message saying that these options are not available for APFS formatted volumes. I thought that TT 11 was supposed to completely compatible with Mojave?"
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 17:42 #10611

Thanks for your reports.

It was my understanding that the optimizers would work on APFS volumes that reside on a rotational hard drive (not an SSD) when you are booted from a Protogo device [see correction in next posting below]:

1. The File Optimization requires booting from a bootable volume on another device when you are using High Sierra or Mojave.

2. The Volume Optimization always requires unmounting the volume to be optimized.

Booting from a Protogo device satisfies both requirements.

I will have to ask the beta administrator for TechTool Pro about this issue.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 10 Feb 2019 18:04 by micromattech3.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 17:53 #10612

I regret that I did not recall from the beta notes that the Volume Optimization and File Optimization are available only for HFS+ volumes. This is not an issue of compatibility with Mojave, but a consequence of the fact that Apple has yet to document how to write to APFS volumes at the file system level. They have documented how to read from APFS volumes (152 pages worth).

The TechTool Pro 11 manual will be updated to include this current limitation on the use of the optimizers.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 10 Feb 2019 19:31 by micromattech3.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 18:40 #10613

152 pages are for a technical wizard, not an end user. So…is there no answer to this issue and malady?
For one thing, an APFS volume can still be an HFS+ format can’t it?
Hopefully this can be resolved soon. The File & Volume Optimizations are what I use the most from Protogo.
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The following user(s) said Thank You: mdriskill

APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 18:59 #10614

There will be no way to solve this until Apple provides the proper documentation. APFS is an entirely new filesystem, and the documentation for HFS+ volumes cannot be used for APFS. An APFS volume cannot he in "HFS+ format". Both types of volumes can reside on a single device that has a GUID partition map.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 20:57 #10618

This was at least an informative reply. Thank you for that.
Obviously there is some work ahead. Look forward to the next update then although I feel that may
Be farther down the road.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 21:05 #10619

You are welcome, and I suspect you are correct about the timeframe for an APFS-compatible disk optimizer for rotational hard drives.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 21:29 #10622

Well, that bums me right out. I too use file and volume optimization far more than any other tool. Thanks for the information. I guess we'll have to anxiously await a bit longer.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 21:47 #10625

I have a SATA drive that is formatted with APFS on an older High Sierra OS. Volume and File Optimization work. Actually running it now on that machine. My laptop has an SSD drive with Mojave and of course it is AFPS formatted. I do get the message that Volume and File optimization isn't available on APFS drives.
My question is why is it working on high Sierra with a 1gig spinner type hard drive formatted APFS?
I understand why not on a SSD, But everyone is saying it won't work on any APFS drive...
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 23:02 #10628

mfaccone,

Thanks for your report.

I do not see how either disk optimizer could work on an APFS volume.

Please select the relevant volume in the Finder, type Command I to bring up the Info box, and make a screen capture of the Info box, so we can see what the Finder is reporting as the volume format. I have seen cases in which the operating system misidentified a volume format, and even a restart did not correct the problem. A full shutdown, waiting a few minutes, and a reboot was necessary for Disk Utility to correctly identify the volume format.
Attachments:
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 10 Feb 2019 23:02 by micromattech3.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 23:10 #10629

To my knowledge the APSF format was not introduced until the initial version of Mojave.
I’m pretty sure that is correct but please verify if you are in doubt.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 23:20 #10631

b_paris,

APFS is generally considered to have been introduced in High Sierra. If I recall correctly, it was possible to either enable or install an early version in Sierra.

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_File_System :

Apple File System (APFS) is a proprietary file system for macOS High Sierra (10.13) and later, iOS 10.3 and later, tvOS 10.2 and later,[6] and watchOS 3.2 and later,[7] developed and deployed by Apple Inc.[8][9] It aims to fix core problems of HFS+ (also called Mac OS Extended), APFS's predecessor on these operating systems. Apple File System is optimized for flash and solid-state drive storage, with a primary focus on encryption.[10][11]
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 23:33 #10633

once volume optimization is complete. at 53% now... I will look at that.
I do know that I was asked the option of formatting AFPS when I installed High Sierra and I accepted, Even showed that format along with all the containers in disk utility. That was over a year ago when High Sierra was released,
If its not AFPS formatted I will be surprised and curious at the same time, I will take a screen shot and submit it here if it is AFPS.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 23:36 #10634

This is what the forums are about. I stand corrected then but having run the previous OS’s (Sierra and High Sierra) on my iMac I do not remember ever having the option of formatting to APFS. It certainly doesn’t matter much at this point except to know the fact. Thank you for that information.
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 23:44 #10635

mfaccone,

Thank you, and I look forward to your screen capture of the relevant volume's Info box.

Exactly what formatting volume options were available with each version of High Sierra on internal and external volumes, on SSDs, and on rotational drives, is a complicated subject that was explored in detail over a period of months at www.macintouch.com (a Website with a high signal-to-noise ratio). I do not think the contributors were ever able to come to a definitive conclusion.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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APFS Volumes 10 Feb 2019 23:46 #10636

b_paris,

You are welcome, and if you see my reply above to mfaccone, you see that the formatting options were a complicated and largely undocumented topic.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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APFS Volumes 11 Feb 2019 00:02 #10639

mfaccone,

If you cannot stand the suspense about your volume format, there is a simple way to see it. Open Terminal, located in /Applications/Utilities. At the prompt, type:

diskutil list

Press the Return key.

An example is shown below.
Macintosh:~ MMT3$ diskutil list
/dev/disk0 (internal, physical):
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *4.0 TB     disk0
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk0s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS Macintosh HD            4.0 TB     disk0s2
   3:                 Apple_Boot Recovery HD             650.0 MB   disk0s3

/dev/disk1 (external, physical):
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *500.1 GB   disk1
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk1s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS G-Tech 500 GB Offsit... 499.8 GB   disk1s2

/dev/disk2 (external, physical):
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:      GUID_partition_scheme                        *4.0 TB     disk2
   1:                        EFI EFI                     209.7 MB   disk2s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS H_G_Wells               4.0 TB     disk2s2

The "diskutil list" command, unlike the df (display filesystems) command, shows volumes whether they are mounted or not.

If you post your diskutil list output, I will add the code tags to make the formatting more readable. Thank you.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
Last Edit: 11 Feb 2019 00:17 by micromattech3.
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APFS Volumes 11 Feb 2019 01:18 #10640

Ok... so it completed. What is weird i that I formatted the drive as APFS and reinstalled the os as a clean install.
Last time I looked at the disk utility with Command R it shows formatted as APFS.
Today, after doing running file and volume optimization... is shows Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
This is why I was concerned about MacOS Mojave being compatible with Techtool since it was all about the APFS format.
Now I would like to figure out why the format changed all of a sudden
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APFS Volumes 11 Feb 2019 01:44 #10641

Thanks for the update.

I can assure you that the disk optimizers in TechTool Pro cannot optimize an APFS volume, because they cannot write directly to the disk directory, a task that requires the not-yet-available Apple APFS documentation mentioned earlier in this thread.

It is possible that one of the updates you installed for Mojave changed the volume format. I think the Apple Discussion Forums might be of help in understanding when the volume format change was made.

Keep in mind that Mojave is an operating system, and HFS+ and APFS are filesystems. One can have Mojave without having APFS, if one makes the effort, although the default is that if Mojave is installed on an internal SSD, the Mojave installer changes the volume format to APFS, and can do that without erasing the original HFS+ volume.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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APFS Volumes 11 Feb 2019 02:48 #10642

It must have been an update on the High Sierra OS since that is the computer that this is on. When High Sierra came out, I did a clean install of High Sierra and chose the APFS format. I always understood that once you format it APFS you couldn't go back. My bad I guess
My MacBook Pro that has Mojave installed is most definitely APFS formatted.
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APFS Volumes 11 Feb 2019 02:53 #10643

mfaccone,

There is no doubt that this is a puzzling topic with a complex history.

Thanks for your observations and your contributions to this thread.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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APFS Volumes 11 Feb 2019 19:53 #10660

"Keep in mind that Mojave is an operating system, and HFS+ and APFS are filesystems. One can have Mojave without having APFS, if one makes the effort, although the default is that if Mojave is installed on an internal SSD, the Mojave installer changes the volume format to APFS, and can do that without erasing the original HFS+ volume."

My undestanding: In High Sierra, it was possible for an external hard drive formatted with HFS+ to contain a bootable volume. As of Mojave, though, APFS is the default for all boot drives -- internal or external, SSD or hard drive, etc.
The Mojave upgrade package will convert the boot volume being upgraded to APFS if it is not already formatted in that manner.

I have not seen any mechanism in the Mojave upgrade package that permits the user to override this conversion. Just for the sake of curiousity, I'd be interested in hearing more about how one can do this.

On the flip side, it is always possible to perform the HFS+ to APFS conversion on a volume using Disk Utility. One simply selects the volume in the sidebar, and then selects "Convert to APFS" from the Edit menu.
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APFS Volumes 11 Feb 2019 20:44 #10664

daveax,

Thanks for your observations about APFS, which I hope will be helpful to others.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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APFS Volumes 14 Feb 2019 17:16 #10696

I was able to get the e-drive to work on my computer, and now have the same message as Kevin has. Am I going to have to erase and reformat my drive to MacJournal, and then start all over again... this is becoming rather laborious since I have done this a couple of times before... Thank you for finding a solution where reformatting won’t be necessary...:)
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APFS Volumes 14 Feb 2019 17:55 #10697

If you are referring to the fact that the disk optimizers do not work on APFS volumes, you should keep in mind that even beginning to work on an APFS optimizer requires documentation that Apple has not produced.

I would not encourage anyone to convert an installation of Mojave on an APFS volume to one on a MacOS Extended (journaled) volume, also known as HFS+, because there are reports that the App Store and system software updates no longer work after such a conversion.
MicroMat Inc
Makers of TechTool
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